Episode 11
Seeking Happiness, with Puneet Singh Singhal
A really special episode for the International Stuttering Day 2022. Serena talks again with Puneet Singh Singhal, Founder of Ssstart and Disability Activist, about Stammering, a new perspective on Diversity and Inclusion and about the importance of joy, pleasure and happiness.
You can find more about Puneet here:
- Ssstart Linkedin page, a non-profit that promises patience, empathy, and freedom of communication.
- Ssstart Website
- Puneet Singh: Linkedin profile
- Stamma Blog: Puneet's blog
- Article from Kanthari: the story behind Ssstart
- Education World -Article
Transcript
Accessibility to feel.
Puneet:Because if we feeling safe, then we'll be comfortable.
Puneet:And if we are comfortable, we'll be even trying to have fun.
Puneet:Like why DI is all about, inclusion, why it's all about acceptance.
Puneet:Can we go beyond acceptance?
Puneet:Can we go beyond that?
Puneet:We are just focusing on the needs.
Puneet:So we never disability with creativity ledger celebration, joy, and.
Puneet:I want to ask why we are not why we are not supposed to have desires.
Puneet:Why we are only supposed to just survive and not thrive.
Puneet:Not enjoy, not celebrate our lives.
Puneet:And I think enjoyment and comfort is by far a human right.
Puneet:And just cause we are human, we, we are entitled to have that right.
Puneet:To seek pleasure.
Puneet:Welcome to I'm back today, I'm going to have a conversation with puny.
Puneet:I'm really happy to have unit back to celebrate together the
Puneet:international stammering day to have.
Puneet:A really provocative conversation around diversity and inclusion
Puneet:and then.
Puneet:About the importance for everyone.
Puneet:These are not to seek happiness.
Puneet:Pleasure and joy.
Puneet:Welcome back.
Puneet:Only yesterday I was planning to design a curriculum
Puneet:for diversity inclusion.
Puneet:And what I have felt like the number of workshops that I have
Puneet:attended, it's very Americanized.
Puneet:The perspective is very narrow and the most of the focus is on,
Puneet:on when talk diversity, most on which I would not say that it's.
Puneet:It's not required.
Puneet:Of course it is required, but there are other complicities as
Puneet:well, which we need to think about.
Puneet:There are other interactions as well.
Puneet:So when I think when I was reflecting what is de For me
Puneet:DEI is to, is the accessibility.
Puneet:Accessibility to feel.
Puneet:Because if we feeling safe, then we'll be comfortable.
Puneet:And if we are comfortable, we'll be even trying to have fun.
Puneet:Like why DI is all about, inclusion, why it's all about acceptance.
Puneet:Can we go beyond acceptance?
Puneet:Can we go beyond that?
Puneet:We are just focusing on the needs.
Puneet:And maybe just, let's have fun with this concept.
Puneet:Less, less experiment a bit.
Puneet:And what is my, like I always wanted to learn and the best way
Puneet:to learn is to make mistakes.
Puneet:And even if I'm like, I'm something incorrect, I would love to hear
Puneet:what people has to say about it.
Puneet:Cause then I think with all of these arguments with debate, I think I will.
Puneet:And we will learn a whole lot of things.
Puneet:So let's not hold back just to be politically correct and diplomatic.
Puneet:We can argue, we can debate about it.
Puneet:And it's about, having some opinions as well.
Puneet:So I can question what is diversity?
Puneet:What is eqd, what is inclusion?
Puneet:I can look up to dictionary and see the meaning of.
Puneet:And if we see the meaning of that, suppose inclusion.
Puneet:So inclusion is about inclusion as, as simple as that.
Puneet:So like we talk about different intersections, we talk about people
Puneet:of color, we talk about community, but we are leaving behind white
Puneet:men, white heterosexual men.
Puneet:Because then they are feeling like we are always on the, on this.
Puneet:We are always expected to listen.
Puneet:No one is listening to us.
Puneet:And it's like our ancestors have done all of these things.
Puneet:Why would we be like we declared as in as a pri So we have to take
Puneet:everyone together, even if like we call them, Even if we told them like,
Puneet:like they have all the resources at their disposal, no problem.
Puneet:We have to take everyone together and this is real and thorough inclusion.
Puneet:What do you think about?
Serena:I think that for me personally, diversity and inclusion is for everyone.
Serena:And sometimes I have the feeling that the diversity inclusion discussion.
Serena:It's not for everyone.
Serena:And this make me sad.
Serena:I can give you personal example.
Serena:Of course I'm Italian, so I'm I'm from the west.
Serena:I'm privileged for a lot of things and at the same time I'm a disabled person.
Serena:What is the fine line between.
Serena:Being privileged or not because everyone on a of us have and can bring a different
Serena:story and then different perspective.
Serena:And yes, some people are more privileged than others.
Serena:Yes.
Serena:And at the same time, if we are not curious anymore to
Serena:listen to their stories, What kind of word are we creating?
Serena:Is it really our word that is inclusive?
Serena:Is it really a word where everyone feel valued and seen?
Serena:So I have a lot of question about that, and especially because I really believe
Serena:that no one needs to be left behind.
Serena:And uh, I have the impression that we are not doing a great
Serena:job on this at the moment.
Serena:What do you think?
Puneet:Believe that you caught my point of when I said that
Puneet:privileged people are actually.
Puneet:That privilege.
Puneet:There are complexities as well.
Puneet:There are intersections which are at the, Just because you are
Puneet:white, it doesn't mean that you have your life has no issues.
Puneet:Youre a person with disability as well.
Puneet:So there are of, we are not putting people into boxes.
Puneet:Too simplify i our thoughts.
Puneet:So if a person with disability is just not a person with disability,
Puneet:That person can have lot of other characteristics in the personality,
Puneet:he or she, or they can be anything.
Puneet:They can be an artist, they can be like they can have different
Puneet:interest and all of these things.
Puneet:So there are a lot of things like we cannot put human beings into
Puneet:boxes and we are doing exactly that.
Puneet:So we are making our.
Puneet:Work which is supposed to be simple, very complicated because
Puneet:simple things are not easy for simplicity is the most complicated.
Puneet:That simplicity and it's is time to, You don think Sarah, that we are,
Puneet:where are we heading in that regard?
Puneet:Cause then people will have bitter.
Puneet:It'll be having bitterness because even if I'm mindful of all of these things.
Puneet:I am not a white person, but I know, like I read, I go through the talk
Puneet:about societies like In Western countries, the side rate is so high.
Puneet:Like why?
Puneet:If you guys have all the facilities, if you guys have everything, why people are
Puneet:having mental health issues and suicides
Serena:because there is something that is happening beneath the thing.
Serena:Exactly.
Puneet:So the system is not working well and we are thinking that okay there are
Puneet:some marginalized sections in this world.
Puneet:And I'm not being dismissive, I'm not saying that it's a pie.
Puneet:Like we think of everything as a.
Puneet:That that, that is a pizza Yes.
Puneet:That if I got the slice, you will not get the slice.
Puneet:I think this is, sustainability is all about like having
Puneet:this supply of happiness.
Puneet:Why not supply of we talk about food and energy and this is like
Puneet:why we, This is stopping seek happiness from your success.
Puneet:You take, you enjoy my success.
Puneet:A lot.
Puneet:And I do the same.
Puneet:Like I seek happiness from your success.
Puneet:You won this award, your podcast and I about that, who, about your success?
Puneet:There is unlimited happiness.
Puneet:There is unlimited humanity in this world.
Puneet:And let's explore that together.
Puneet:Like we, humans tend to divide things like it's so easy to divide, but can we can.
Puneet:Can we stop and show solid solidarity because in this planet we are
Puneet:having a war at this point of time.
Puneet:Theres places like Pakistan where there is flood, there are leaders who
Puneet:are not behaving in a mature level.
Puneet:So there is whole lot of issues and I think as if we can, if
Puneet:we know a whole lot of things.
Puneet:Can we feel really inclusive?
Puneet:Can we look up to dictionary and see the meaning of
Puneet:it's us?
Serena:You said before that it's so important to create a safe space.
Serena:Not only for inclusivity, but also for this pursuit of happiness and joy.
Serena:And I will add also freedom to be who you are with being truthful to yourself.
Serena:How can we create this safe space when the world is on fire?
Puneet:I give you an example of in, in our neighboring country, Pakistan,
Puneet:we are having blood and some of my best friends are there, they are stuck.
Puneet:They have lot of challenges.
Puneet:Lot of diseases are also, they are water bonds is, I would think is going.
Puneet:The wrong way.
Puneet:And you know what are the one thing that, that they're seeking
Puneet:pleasure from is music and dance?
Puneet:Like as simple as that?
Puneet:Because when I was proposing that, no, why cannot we arrange a
Puneet:community level academy will a thing.
Puneet:I'm not talking about.
Puneet:Like using money.
Puneet:I'm just talking about people coming together and seeing that
Puneet:yes, it's this, like maybe at this point time we are having lot of
Puneet:challenges being dismissive issues.
Puneet:Again, I am very mindful that what our heart goes down when we think about it.
Puneet:It's so difficult to survive, but at the end of the day, people coming together.
Puneet:And they are share sharing their sorrow and they're trying to be happy.
Puneet:What's wrong in that?
Puneet:But some people are like, Oh no, we should only think about food.
Puneet:We should think about shelter, medicine, all of these things.
Puneet:This is fine.
Puneet:These are basic necessities.
Puneet:But when I think about myself, when I was when my father used to beat me daily,
Puneet:when my mother was in depression, when I.
Puneet:I was struggling to eat.
Puneet:What was the one thing that that me going was get a chocolate.
Puneet:Like I'm during the day I'm buying myself a chocolate in evening.
Puneet:That's the one thing I was looking to eat to celebrate that I'm alive
Puneet:it is all, it's as simple as that.
Puneet:Like why we are just thinking about look, these people are poor.
Puneet:These people are like, not p, so we'll also only think about their
Puneet:needs, but they cannot have desires just as people with disability.
Puneet:They just can, They are just supposed to survive, just live their everyday lives
Puneet:with whatever challenges they're having.
Puneet:Okay.
Puneet:You do that.
Puneet:But you cannot seek pleasure.
Puneet:You cannot have sexual desires, You cannot have romantic partners
Puneet:cannot have simply, you cannot seek pleasure as simple as that.
Puneet:So why not?
Serena:And what if we put pleasure as a basic need?
Puneet:Beautiful.
Puneet:Why not?
Puneet:I just
Serena:say, Why not?
Serena:Why not?
Serena:It was so moving, what you were saying, and I really think that it's a change
Serena:of perspective because If I'm thinking about people that are coming back
Serena:to work, for example, it's so easy for them and for all of us to think
Serena:about, okay, what are the basic needs?
Serena:Maybe it's the accommodation, maybe it's the chair, maybe, I don't know,
Serena:something that is really practical.
Serena:And then you think, Okay, I'm good.
Serena:No.
Serena:It's not true because yes, the practical things are important and
Serena:essential, but what help you to move and to live and to say to yourself,
Serena:Okay, I can restart from here.
Serena:I can have dreams, hopes it's something else and it's it's a conversation,
Serena:I think really disruptive right now because we don't want to talk about
Serena:the need of pleasure and happiness
Serena:but at the same time, it's so important.
Puneet:We see warmth, basic warmth.
Puneet:Like building the last know that I, we were our last podcasting have
Puneet:learned the one most touching thing that, that I learned from working with
Puneet:kids that they have not looked at me.
Puneet:As a person with multiple disabilities, they have looked as me as a person.
Puneet:They have not me into a box.
Puneet:They are looking beyond that and they are listening.
Puneet:They are observing.
Puneet:They think I have something to offer.
Puneet:And they accept it with all heartedness.
Puneet:Yes we are with you.
Puneet:Let's do something less experiment.
Puneet:They're always that, that open.
Puneet:So what I have learned, like I am not putting them into that, that
Puneet:these kids are with disabilities.
Puneet:They are from this, no, this is not their identity.
Puneet:They're much more than that.
Puneet:And it's about warmth.
Puneet:Like people coming back from sickness and they're coming back to the office and
Puneet:then it's it's someone talking to them.
Puneet:Like how are you feeling today with that warmth?
Puneet:No it's not about like getting a job and, or maybe it's not only about
Puneet:getting his salary and all of this insurance and no financial support.
Puneet:Yeah, it's fine.
Puneet:It's really.
Puneet:But at the end of the day, human beings seek warmth.
Puneet:Are they getting that?
Puneet:Are they feeling welcomed and valued?
Puneet:And half of the issues will be gone because, we are already having a pain.
Puneet:We are already having this kind of mental stress.
Puneet:But if someone says okay, let's sit down and talk about how's your life going?
Puneet:Tell me.
Puneet:Half of your worry goes go away, and you're feeling like
Puneet:you're feeling so better.
Puneet:And even just seconds.
Puneet:It's better than therapy.
Puneet:Like we are spending so much on therapies and all of these things,
Puneet:but the relationship, the in relationships are really important.
Puneet:And we are somehow missing upon that on everywhere.
Puneet:On this on, on this.
Puneet:Planet call heart.
Puneet:I think
Serena:sometimes that having a conversation, it's not only enough,
Serena:but it's what's really needed.
Serena:And real conversation.
Serena:Not just saying, Oh, our, you, let's talk about the KPIs that we not need
Serena:to achieve, but it's about our you.
Serena:I'm interested in you.
Serena:I see you.
Serena:I'm here for you because I care about you and yes, let's talk also about the KPIs.
Serena:But you first, and this is something that is not so understood right now,
Serena:that the, our society, it's running Towards money performance, success, et
Serena:cetera, cetera, and at the same time is creating all the condition to not
Serena:achieve success, really performance and success, because it's so related to
Serena:bonds, to connection, to conversation.
Serena:And as you said seeing the other person with the eye of a child.
Serena:So without boxes, without labels, who cares about your identity?
Serena:And I'm saying this in the most positive sense because I think every one of us
Serena:is much, much more complex than the identity that we are creating for our.
Puneet:Yeah, and it's we're like to think that we're way too sensitive, that,
Puneet:we have these kind, fun conversations.
Puneet:Like it time it takes a lot of trust building.
Puneet:And you cannot just go to someone and say that, No, let's talk.
Puneet:If that person doesn't trust you, how can, like how can we
Puneet:actually talk and it's pretty deep.
Puneet:It's like it can take time, it can take months, it can take lot of time.
Puneet:Manage.
Puneet:It's like, it's not that simple and it's not the only thing that we require.
Puneet:But certainly it can help.
Puneet:And because we can just go and rely on someone who to share
Puneet:that what we are going through.
Puneet:It's simple, it's easy, it's spaces, and
Puneet:I think rather than we are more focused on identities.
Puneet:Can we be more focused on values?
Puneet:And because you say something about about, about me.
Puneet:I got triggered insecurities there.
Puneet:I say something about you.
Puneet:You got triggered.
Puneet:Like it's a note ending.
Puneet:Circle.
Puneet:And, but if we have trust and if we know that our values are in sync, like maybe
Puneet:there is something behind that to explore.
Puneet:So first we will listen to the other person before reacting.
Puneet:And it's in every little relationship.
Puneet:It's with parent and child, it's with partners.
Puneet:It's with colleagues.
Puneet:I think we are as, it's a very overused phrase, but I would say that we are
Puneet:listening to react, but not to respond
Serena:and link it to that.
Serena:We are recording this episode for our really special occasion that
Serena:is the International Summering Day.
Serena:I'm really happy to have you because I think we can have a beautiful conversation
Serena:about why this day is so important.
Serena:And what is your wish for the stemming community, for the future?
Puneet:Thank you so much for asking that.
Puneet:And to all the listeners, I have not told to ask me that, but I'm pretty prepared
Puneet:for this question cause this is what I do.
Puneet:So I got lot of calls, like I got calls at night when I'm
Puneet:sleeping and these young stores.
Puneet:Coco is going young people with standard, they want a quick fix.
Puneet:They want a magic pill.
Puneet:They just want, get to get themselves treated.
Puneet:They want talk, what we call fluently.
Puneet:And it's like I understand like what they're going through, bullying, they're
Puneet:going through whole lot of issues.
Puneet:It took me 20 years to actually I was just like that when, in my college
Puneet:days, in my school days, I was just like oh God just make me a normal speaker.
Puneet:Just my standing.
Puneet:It has given me whole lot of things.
Puneet:When I opened my heart, when I.
Puneet:Looked back into time, it just make me such a sensitive person.
Puneet:Such, such a, You made more humane, more I valued word that
Puneet:is coming out my valued everyone.
Puneet:I see people who are not hard.
Puneet:Like I, I see an every marginalized community as relatable.
Puneet:Cause I, I can see that what it feels when people don't listen to you.
Puneet:So it's I talk to them that, no just take your time and, you cannot run
Puneet:from something that is within you.
Puneet:You cannot run away from.
Puneet:It's fine.
Puneet:You're going through a lot.
Puneet:It's completely un understandable that people are mocking you,
Puneet:people are loving on you, people are finishing your sentences.
Puneet:But, all of these pauses, when I was giving a speech in my
Puneet:school, there was a huge pause.
Puneet:couldn't address a single.
Puneet:And when people were laughing on me and I took a long breath and these few
Puneet:moments of mindfulness, I think it's, this was some kind of meditation for
Puneet:me, some kind of spiritual awakening for me that I'm so alive when I, by why I'm
Puneet:doing that to myself, like world can be.
Puneet:Little harsh on me, little root on me, but why I'm so rough.
Puneet:Let's not fight with your, just, enjoy that.
Puneet:Just don't try to do anything.
Puneet:And it's it works as a therapy for me and.
Puneet:And now I have no issues with whether I ta or I don't.
Puneet:It's fine.
Puneet:It's just the way we speak and I want every single person
Puneet:withering to feel that way or not.
Puneet:Justing, any kind person who is not able to express their feelings,
Puneet:their emotions, it's totally fine.
Puneet:It's okay.
Puneet:It's like, Just give yourself some time.
Puneet:Don't be harsh on yourself, and you are not the only one
Puneet:who is going through this.
Puneet:And it's a process.
Puneet:It's a process of healing will take time, but you allow yourself to,
Puneet:you have, give yourself that, that open environment and air to breathe.
Puneet:And yeah, breathing is the fundamental unit of life.
Puneet:And let's breathe.
Puneet:That's not run without breathing keep breathing and just walking.
Puneet:Let's keep walking on this path.
Serena:We are always running.
Serena:I feel that we are running against time against people, against ourselves.
Serena:So it's really beautiful what you are saying and also the reflection
Serena:that you can give yourself time
Serena:with the international sta stumbling day, there is a sense of also of celebration.
Serena:What means?
Serena:Celebrate your sting to you and do you want to celebrate your sting?
Puneet:If you would've asked this question few years back, I would be saying
Puneet:like, Why would I celebrate something that is making my life miserable?
Puneet:? Yes.
Puneet:But now I just love, I just love and I, talking about when there was some
Puneet:incident when someone is timeing on the TV or someone is timeing in real life, I.
Puneet:I used to become invisible.
Puneet:Just like I pray to God that I become invisible and I don't wanna
Puneet:be seen because it's so horrible to see someone as person with, If I
Puneet:see someone with, It was like I was, I used to ble, I used to shakes.
Puneet:Really great to encounter that cause.
Puneet:It's simply the diversity in, in, in the form of expression is what steming is.
Puneet:Diversity expressing is a different way to express with somes, with
Puneet:it does different.
Puneet:It's and still I want to celebrate this day cause I'm proud.
Puneet:The way we live our everyday lives is difficult, no doubt.
Puneet:But it's beautiful at the same time.
Serena:Do you want to add something more on this conversation?
Serena:I want to add historical political and religious side of stem.
Serena:Cause it's really important to see that where, from where we are coming.
Serena:Because in, in the Hinduism and in Buddhism, it is sad that it is ising
Serena:or any other kind of disability is the result of your past life.
Serena:Karma.
Serena:It's the punishment it's it's bad and it's negative, and and
Serena:you should like, you deserve.
Serena:This is the narrative, this is the religious narrative.
Serena:And and then we have Victorian literature in which each time was equated with
Serena:same sex intimacy that that as tempering is a physical impediment being.
Serena:Gay or being from gay community is like socially forbidden.
Serena:So it's quite same thing.
Serena:And also like they used to say that in some stories being gay men and if you're
Serena:a men steming, then you are not, man.
Serena:You're not like, you're not a yeah.
Serena:Like, how to say that you're not fully developed or whatever for the better.
Serena:The lack of better.
Serena:And in politics we have Draw Biden now president of United States and
Serena:he is continuously facing bullying the opposition parties and all.
Serena:The people who are against him says that, this person cannot even speak properly.
Serena:How will he lead the word?
Serena:So these narratives, we are coming from these narratives.
Serena:We, we are still facing bullying.
Serena:The journey, The path is not easy, but on the 22nd of October, as we are celebrating
Serena:international stuttering awareness we can, we can try to be a good listener.
Serena:We can try to have more empathy and it's, it works both sides.
Serena:The people who, whose and people who doesn't.
Serena:If we are little more open, if we are a little more.
Serena:Open to change, open to question.
Serena:I think we can move forward to a new kind of society where differences will be not
Serena:considered a bad thing because it's all about differences, Homophobia, racism.
Serena:All of these things are about differences, right?
Serena:Ableism is also all the difference.
Serena:It's our defense mechanism to the people who act different, who look
Serena:different, who think different.
Serena:So it, it's our human tendency to be afraid of something that is different.
Serena:We always show assistant to change just about.
Serena:Showing little bit of openness and yeah, we can be a little
Serena:more what we say more vulnerable and to have a more inclusive society.
Serena:Thank you for me.
Serena:Thank you so much, Punit.
Serena:It's really a pleasure to have you back.
Serena:And I am back.
Serena:Yes.
Serena:It's pleasure to be back when I'm back.
Serena:Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it with friends then needs
Serena:to hear this important conversation.
Serena:You can find more information in the description or on the website.
Serena:pod.link/welcomeback.